Passing the Torch: The Evolution of TAUGHT

Something profound is happening in education systems worldwide. Beneath lesson plans and standardized tests lies a deeper crisis: burnout is pushing devoted educators to their breaking points—and beyond. TAUGHT is evolving to meet this critical moment.

In this special transition episode, original creator and host Melissa LeFort passes the torch to Amy Schamberg, signaling a powerful shift from elevating burnout stories to actively exploring solutions. Their conversation reveals the podcast’s deeply personal origins, inspired by the unexpected deaths of two of Melissa’s colleagues—educators who gave everything to their profession but never made it to retirement. This heartbreaking pattern pushed Melissa to create space for raw, honest conversations about the challenges educators face. Over a year of interviews with teachers across the globe, one thing became clear: burnout isn’t just an American problem—it’s a global crisis. Educators everywhere report feeling unsupported, silenced, and devalued, even as they remain deeply committed to their students.

Amy brings a new lens as a school psychologist, wellness coach, and public health doctoral student focused on systems-level change. She shares the moment that transformed her thinking, when a workshop participant told her: “It doesn’t matter how many mindfulness techniques I have if I’m walking back into a toxic environment every day.” That insight solidified her belief that addressing burnout requires more than personal resilience—it demands organizational change. Looking ahead, TAUGHT will spotlight the people and practices actively reshaping school culture to prioritize well-being.

Ready to move beyond surface-level fixes and confront the root causes of educator burnout? Follow TAUGHT wherever you get your podcasts, and join us in reimagining what workplace wellness in education can—and should—be.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Season 2
• 2:36 Meet New Host Amy Schamberg
• 9:02 Melissa's Journey Starting TAUGHT
• 25:32 Learning About Educator Burnout Types
• 35:20 Memorable Episodes and Guest Stories
• 46:24 Shifting Focus to Systemic Solutions
• 58:53 Amy's Vision for TAUGHT's Future
• 1:05:57 Final Thoughts and Passing the Torch

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:09

Music Across the globe, educators are burnt out. Research shows that chronic stress and burnout harms teachers' health, drives high turnover and disrupts student learning. It's time to stop treating burnout like a personal failing and start addressing the systems, structures and root causes that are burning educators out in the first place. Hi everyone, I'm Amy Schamberg and welcome to Season 2 of TAUGHT, where we are shifting the conversation from stories to solutions and rethinking what workplace wellness and education really means. Hi everyone, and welcome to a very special episode of TAUT. If you're a longtime listener, I am so glad you're here, and if this is your first time tuning in, welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:06

My name is Amy Schamberg and I am so excited to be stepping in as the new host of this amazing podcast. Today's episode is a bit different. It's a transition episode, so you can think of it as a warm handoff, and I couldn't imagine doing this without the incredible woman who created this space in the first place. I'm joined by Melissa LaFleur, the original creator and host of TAUT, and someone who's been a powerful voice in helping educators name, understand and navigate burnout. Melissa, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Thank you for having me, amy. I'm excited to be here, and I want you to know that, after a year of podcasting, this is the first time I've ever been interviewed, so first for me too.

Speaker 2: 1:52

Oh my gosh, how serendipitous this transition episode is. What?

Speaker 2: 1:57

it is, and I'm just so glad that we get to have this conversation together. And before we jump into where the podcast is shifting into next, I do want to take time today to honor where it's been. And so, for everybody listening, melissa's interviews brought vulnerability and humor and insight to conversations a lot of educators have been having silently and have been carrying around for years. I know this because I was one of her guests at one point and I sat in the hot seat. I've shared my story here and I've also felt the power of being seen and heard in a community of people who truly get it. That is just invaluable.

Speaker 2: 2:37

So today, melissa and I are going to reflect on the journey so far. We'll talk about why this transition is happening right now and we'll share a little bit about what you can expect from the podcast moving forward. So the focus, like I said, is shifting just slightly. So we're going from burnout stories to, hopefully, burnout solutions, but at its core, taught will always be about creating space for the real, and often messy, human experience of working in education and in caregiving spaces in general. So, with that said, let's get into it. Melissa, I'd love to start by asking you to share a little bit with everyone on what inspired you to start taught and what the journey of hosting the podcast has been like for you as the host.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Well, that's, I have a very long answer to this, and the first thing I want to say is that I did not know anything about podcasting, except I listened to some of them a couple of times. I wasn't even a big podcast, a person who listened to a lot of podcasts when I started this big podcast a person who listened to a lot of podcasts when I started this. So I had to teach myself how to use everything. And it was so funny because when I initially started doing interviews, people would say do I come to your studio? And I'm like, well, my studio is my closet. So I was setting everything up in my closet, which had a built-in bureau, and then closing the doors. Enough, because it opened up like this so that it kind of shielded and it looked like a white background. So that's where I kind of started the podcast, you know. And here at the end I upgraded to a desk in my living room. So it was never like a high production thing and the first few were pretty yeah, you could tell amateur. I don't know that I got much beyond amateur, but I've certainly enjoyed the time that I've done it. But the whole reason that I wanted to do the podcast.

Speaker 1: 4:35

It started out with my book and it started out with me being a burnout teacher and I was so miserable and I had this idea that I like to write and that if I wrote this scathing expose and a fictitious memoir based loosely on my own experiences as a teacher, that I could change the world and make some money and leave education. And so I wrote the book, which took me a very long time, and then I edited the book and then I had to figure out how to self-publish the book, because I couldn't get an agent, and if you don't have an agent, you can't get a publisher to look at you. So I was like I'm going to self-publish. I just knew it was going to resonate. What I didn't count on was that you have to also be a marketing guru, which I am not. This is where I have fallen short for a long time.

Speaker 1: 5:26

So in the process of the publishing of the book, I did quit my job and we began a big journey of moving to Portugal and during that transition, my daughter and my husband I think it was my husband that said it first, and then my daughter said it like a couple of weeks later they both said, okay, you're not teaching anymore, but you're still talking about education all the time. You should start a podcast. You did the book thing. You know you're you're just kind of in this space here where you don't have a lot to do. Have you ever thought about doing a podcast where you talk about education? So I was like, well, that's a good idea. I do like to talk about education a lot, and I had nothing but time on my hands.

Speaker 1: 6:11

I was in Brazil, I didn't speak Portuguese, it was inside a lot. So I started working on what I needed to do to do a podcast and I interviewed my really dear friend who I talk about education to. We are inexhaustible on all of the topics. We are so annoying to be around for other people. But we actually got an Airbnb once and for two days, that's all we did Drank wine, ate snacks and talked about education. It was beautiful. It was a beautiful experience, yeah. So I interviewed her from Brazil and we ended up having like two hours of footage where we just you know, and so I had it done, and then we started the moving from Brazil to Portugal. I just kind of left it by the wayside. I honestly think that I went through a transition shock that just I just needed to work through that.

Speaker 1: 7:13

Once I was here in Portugal I had another friend who I made a friend here, and she read my book and she said you know, this would make a great podcast. And so it had been a year since I had done the interview with Kelly and I was like, well, okay, I'll try it out. You know, this seems like to me it felt like I was being pushed by the universe to do this, getting all these not so gentle reminders. So I started editing the footage, but I was still dragging my feet a little bit. Sadly, while I was editing that footage I found out that two former colleagues passed away within days of each other and it was really anger kind of that inspired the book, and then anger about the deaths of my colleagues that kind of pushed me into going ahead and really making the podcast happen.

Speaker 1: 8:11

Both of the friends that passed were in their I want to say in their late 50s. They were very close to retirement. Both of them were single women who had lots of dreams and goals and passions outside the classroom, although both of them were master educators. Both of them passed in January after coming back from a significant portion of time off. Both of them were unexpected deaths, but my belief is that they were both related to being educators. Not that being an educator causes you to get health problems, but for women in particular, it means that oftentimes we neglect our health, and if this was an isolated thing it probably wouldn't have motivated me. But I have seen so many of my fellow educators give everything for years, beyond everything, and then they don't get to enjoy that retirement, that carrot that is held out for all of us. So that was really kind of what got me inspired and started with the podcast.

Speaker 1: 9:31

So after I put Kelly's episodes out there, my next episode was one of the colleagues, of one of the people who had passed away, because of one of the people who had passed away. Because we're a very tight-knit group educators are, and that works for and against us. We have a lot of hidden things that go on in our community that we only talk to each other about, and when we lose each other it is it's very hard for us, and so I wanted her to be my next. My next episode and that was that was Shanna and and it must have resonated with some people, because from that point forward. I've been blessed by having a guest every week and, if I'm being honest, I did ask all of my friends. At first I was like you want to be on my podcast, but yeah, and then it transitioned into people that I didn't know and yeah, that was kind of how it got going.

Speaker 2: 10:47

Oh my gosh, Thank you so much for sharing that journey, and I just have so many thoughts going through my mind right now. It's like the book was the first part and after the book the universe is giving you these signals from your husband and your daughter, and your daughter and your friends and your new friend in Portugal to create this podcast, and you spent hours in Brazil recording with your friend Kelly and then just kind of had it and then you kind of turned it into the podcast. And I think one thing that I remember, Melissa, is when you first reached out to me about a year ago. You shared some of this in your message to me about the passing of your two colleagues and how that really, really kind of not just rocked your world but inspired you to continue taking action with the podcast that you had been thinking about doing for so long. And you know I just remember you and I connecting over that shared tragedy truly, because sadly, these stories are not rare, and I shared with you some similar stories of colleagues of mine on the other side of the world who had suffered a similar fate, and so I think it was serendipitous that you know we had that conversation and I'm so thankful that you had, you know, that anger that was inspiring you to kind of move forward, and you know, when you talk about the first several interviews being your friends, but those are educators whose voices matter, and so they are, you know, lucky to be your friend because they have this amazing woman who can elevate their voices and make sure that their stories are heard. Because we need their voices, we need the world to hear the stories that you have put out there so that the action can take place right.

Speaker 2: 12:37

Because I feel, though, as though their voices really are something that the policymakers and the people who actually hold influence and power need to hear, and so I just I'm so grateful. Every time I listen to an episode, or re-listen to it, I think, oh my gosh, we need to like broadcast this across state education departments. You know, everybody in a leadership role needs to understand what is happening on the ground. Anyways, I kind of went off on a tangent there, but I just really appreciate you sharing your journey and how it started, and you know, kind of, how you got to the point where you are right now. When you look back, what does the podcast mean to you personally?

Speaker 1: 13:21

So you know, like I told you, I feel like to kind of go on what you were saying. We have this tight-knit community public to trust us with their students, and so nobody wants to hear that the teacher is essentially falling asleep at the desk because they're exhausted. Parents don't want to hear that. They want to hear that when their kid shows up, you can teach them what you need to teach them, and so I think that that goes along with what you were just saying. It's policymakers need to hear this, but we don't necessarily have a forum to share what our lived experience is. Yeah, the podcast.

Speaker 1: 14:15

So I came to Portugal not a teacher, right and the podcast kind of allowed me to continue my work as an educator, but in a different way. So I felt that I was educating the public at large about what it's really like to be a teacher through the stories, and I think what I realized very quickly on is that I wasn't ready to be done, so taught. The podcast gave me another year of teaching, gave me one more year unpaid, unfortunately, but it also gave me a space to do the thing that I really liked, which was essentially to collaborate with my colleagues, because that's what these conversations ended up being. They ended up being a collaboration of just me, curious about their journey and them. Sometimes, you know, it was really hard, even for my friends, to trust that I could get their story out in a way that still helped them uphold their public image. So, yeah, it gave me a year of learning and creating and I needed that for my transition into this next phase of my life and out of education.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Yeah, Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious did you find the process to be cathartic in your healing?

Speaker 1: 15:42

At times, yes, in your healing. At times, yes, I think that it gave me a lot of insight into myself, about who I really was as an educator, and I had blamed a lot of my burnout on systemic things, but I also had to take responsibility. That that's a little bit of my personality. I don't know if it was cathartic. I think that right now, where I'm at in life is that it's okay. I did the best that I could at the time and now I get to move on and do some other things that I enjoy.

Speaker 1: 16:21

I think that when you leave education, you have some at least I did I had some survivor's guilt because things, in my opinion, are not getting better and actually with the current political administration, I feel like they're going to get way worse.

Speaker 1: 16:38

And I don't want to make this political, but I am going to say since I'm the one in the hot seat being interviewed and I get to say what I want to that the dissolution of the Department of Education only harms our most vulnerable populations in education. We are creating an elitist system now that says that certain groups of students matter and other groups don't, and no teacher out there, I think, really wants that system. So it's very, very frustrating and I 100% am relieved to not have to be teaching in it and it breaks my heart. So I think that if I had left this is a long answer to your question, but I think that if I had left and the system was improving, it could have been a healing moment for me to say, okay, well, at least these things are getting better. But instead I don't think that is what's happening.

Speaker 2: 17:41

Yes, you know, I was just driving back from taking my kids to school this morning and I was listening to NPR on the radio and I heard the newscaster saying that the federal department of ed has sent something out to all the state departments of ed requiring them to sign something stating that they will not put forth any more DEI initiatives in schools and if they do, they will no longer receive Title I funding for our Title I schools and our Title I population. So exactly what you're talking about. It's terrible, but I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole right now.

Speaker 2: 18:22

I do want to reflect on what I heard you say about your own evolution as well, and it sounds, rather than being a cathartic journey, it was a journey of like self-discovery and some self-exploration and what you said was really important. And I want to highlight the fact that there are so many pieces of the puzzle when it comes to burnout and there is like systemic pieces are a huge part of that puzzle and, like you and I have talked about, those individual factors must also be addressed and we can't just pick and choose well, we're only going to look at the individual factors or only going to look at the systemic factors. We have to kind of put it all together in order for real change to occur. So I'm glad that you brought that up. Do you find that you're at a place of self-acceptance now, with where you've kind of evolved through the journey?

Speaker 1: 19:13

I definitely do. But I will tell you I'm going to go on another little bird walk for you because you know, essentially in the process of doing this I became a burnout expert myself just because I had so many guests that came on that were burnout experts themselves. So I listened to them. Some of them were also trauma experts. Many of them were counselors and psychiatrists and it was really nice for me to get to hear all of the things that they had to say and I jokingly, but not so much tell people that it was like a year of free therapy for me. And you know there was truth in that jest.

Speaker 1: 20:02

So I kind of learned over the time in the podcast that there are three main burnout types that I was hearing over and over in the podcast. So the first one was those that are burnout but they continue to show up every day and just get through, and that was me for a couple of years. But there are some people that do that till retirement, like they're burnout. But there are some people that do that till retirement Like they're burnout nothing is changing, but they are showing up and doing what has to be done. The second type are the people who actually figure out the path out and they get their life back. They get the resiliency to the stressors and they are able to continue in a career that they are passionate about and love. And then the third type are the ones that leave, and that was me. At the beginning of the podcast, I definitely thought you know what it was all the system? None of it was me.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Then the podcast kind of helped me realize that I have a personality that is drawn to overwork. I have a personality that is drawn to perfectionism. I like to create noise and tasks for myself, and I really did not know these things about me until I had gone through the process of the podcast. So I mean, I can tell you right now where I am today. I have, you know, I don't have to work. I am in Portugal. I can choose what I want to do with my time. I have two podcasts. I have a platform where I help people move to Portugal. I have two blogs. I have a platform where I help people move to Portugal. I have two blogs. I have a website. I have three social media platforms that I have to update all the time. I have a YouTube channel. Did I mention I have a child who is still in school.

Speaker 1: 21:58

You know, I am learning how to speak Portuguese. I was taking Portuguese lessons twice a week and for a bit I was teaching English to other people who speak Portuguese and I had multiple students. None of them could meet at the same time, so I was piecemealing them in here and there, and so I kind of got to the point this actually just happened a couple of months ago where I was like I'm working more than 40 hours a week and I'm essentially retired and I have to go back to what I have learned about burnout and why am I here again? And so my friend Lenita, who came on the podcast. Lenita said to me that you have to look at what's on the plate and if the plate is too full, it is up to you to get that to a reasonable meal. And when you take something off the plate then you can put some. Once you've got a reasonable plate, you have to take something off to put something else on. So I started taking things off the plate. I took the English lessons off. I also taught some college students writing.

Speaker 1: 23:14

I mean, I was just busy all the time. I was so busy I could not do the things that I wanted to do, which was the very reason I left education, supposedly supposedly in the first place. So I decided I wasn't going to teach any more English, I wasn't going to teach any more writing, and then I had to get out of the platform where we were helping people move to Portugal. So slowly I realized the thing that was bringing me most joy was writing. So that half-written book will eventually be a fully written book and I'm going to enjoy the process of writing it rather than trying to put my joyous thing in between the other tasks and jobs I've created for myself. So that kind of got me here where I'm like okay, I know what I need to do now, so we'll be down to one podcast and writing a book soon.

Speaker 2: 24:13

I appreciate you sharing that because I think it's really common for people in education who are ambitious, who care deeply for others, who are multi-passionate, and at first you know we do all these things that feel really energizing and then it gets to the point where the plate is overflowing and you're like, how did I get here? And, yeah, I think that just knowing that about ourselves isn't enough. We have to constantly take action, right, because those patterns reemerge over and over again and burnout can reemerge as a different thing. Maybe it's no longer our occupation but it's our passions and hobbies, right? Or our whole life, right. I mean Totally. It's so true. Okay, and I appreciate you sharing those three themes that you recognized after talking to all of your experts that have come on and educators over the year. Were there any other themes that you wanted to share that you really noticed, just kind of in your experience of having these conversations?

Speaker 1: 25:20

You know, some things that I heard from educators in several countries is that burnout is a global issue. It is not isolated to the US and I think that was surprising to me. Burnout in education specifically, I was like wow, I thought this was just going to be in the US. All of them. The common themes are educators feel unsupported, they feel silenced and devalued and this leads to a toxic work environment. But I also heard that they're deeply committed to serving students and they love that portion of their jobs. I mean, overwhelmingly, I didn't hear anybody showing up saying dang kids. I mean they were so devoted to their families and their communities. So, essentially, we have this large group of well-intended nurturing professionals that are willing to devote their lives to educating the upcoming generations and they're being villainized over and over.

Speaker 1: 26:22

I mean I feel like most of the people I had on the podcast agreed on this hands down and most of them choose the profession because they believe in the power of education and the potential of the generations that they're educating. So it's really a frustrating place to be, especially because you know they are choosing. Your educators are choosing to take these jobs despite the low pay, despite being treated as if they are not professionals and, despite any sign of change on the horizon, I mean, it's like all of that looks like it's going to be here to stay for a while, and this is the part that baffles me. Instead of being grateful and letting these people do what they know how to do, society continues to attempt to create and support ever increasingly complex systemic changes that make this job nearly impossible to do, and I heard that over and over again too. I cannot do my job.

Speaker 1: 27:24

I know how to do this. It takes a skillset. There is a skillset that educators have, and they are not being allowed to use it. They are being told by people who do not have the skillset, have no idea what the skillset is, that they're doing it wrong and it is. It was so hard to listen to, but I'm so proud of all the people who came on and said it because it needs to be said. So I'm proud to have been a teacher, and I am so proud of every person that came on the podcast and shared their experience, because it took a lot.

Speaker 2: 27:58

Yeah, I mean just the dedication is huge. Every day, you know, it's like you feel like you're being set up to fail. You know, when we talk about these systems that are put in front of us like roadblocks or barriers to doing the thing, that if you could just get out of my way for five minutes, I can do this thing really really well and make such a difference. Yet showing up day after day after day yeah, and that's a global thing.

Speaker 1: 28:30

Yeah, unfortunately, Unfortunately.

Speaker 2: 28:42

Yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately, and you know, I mean the other stuff came up too, but I really feel like the other stuff that came up consistently falls under that umbrella. Yeah, so what did you learn from interviewing your guests and talking about burnout with them? We talked about. You know what you kind of learned about yourself. Was there anything else?

Speaker 1: 28:56

You know, I think I learned that probably the biggest thing I learned is that I I don't think there's that many bad educators out there, and I know that sounds silly and I'll tell you what. I've had colleagues that I have fought with over the years where I would have been like that one he shouldn't be teaching, but it was really because we were probably having some frustration over, you know, who's doing recess duty or whatever. It was rarely about their ability to teach, but overwhelmingly I mean it was, I was, I was overwhelmed at the dedication and skill. I mean, these are these people. They just care about what they're doing so much and they put their heart and soul into it and they are very knowledgeable. And even if the people that I interviewed, even if we didn't agree on things that just came through every episode to me, overwhelmingly, yeah, absolutely Any favorite episodes or memorable ones.

Speaker 2: 30:07

I'm sure that they all hold a special place in your heart. But when you think back on the whole past, whole past year, you know the two seasons, which ones stick out to you.

Speaker 1: 30:18

Well for sure, the one that I will never forget was my. So I've interviewed this person twice and the first time I interviewed him and it's Jamie London Wahlberg. So, jamie, if you are listening, you know what I'm going to say. I interviewed him and I forgot to hit record.

Speaker 1: 30:37

And not only did I forget, we interviewed late for me, so we started the interview at like 9pm my time, and I've said this on here millions of times I do not do well at night. I mean, I am one of those people that goes to bed at like 930. And so I was like I can do this, I can stay up, I can do this. So I get Jamie on. Jamie does a fantastic job. We go through the whole podcast. I'm like oh, thank you so much, jamie. Jamie's like okay, I have a client, I'm going to have to go. Blah, blah, blah, we get off. And I'm like well, that's weird when I click the zoom off, because it automatically starts downloading the video. And it didn't. And I realized I didn't.

Speaker 1: 31:27

So I messaged Jamie immediately. I mean, it was the embarrassed that like nobody's there to see me, but I can feel my cheeks are hot. And Jamie was so gracious. He messaged back and said well, my client will be done in 30 minutes, which puts us at how about 1015,? We can get back on and do it again. So we did, and when we finished, jamie said I'm so glad that happened because I feel like this time was better than the first time, don't you? And I was like you are an amazing person. So, yeah, I will not forget that because it worked out for me. I probably would not have forgotten it either if it hadn't worked out for me, but it was very memorable, so memorable that I've not forgotten to hit record since.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Oh my gosh. And you know what else I love about that is it was already late for you. The first recording at 9pm, so by the time you did the second one it must have been like close to midnight.

Speaker 1: 32:27

And Jamie carried the whole thing because I couldn't even tell you what I said. So it was.

Speaker 2: 32:34

I'll definitely have to make sure we link that episode so that people can go back and look through it.

Speaker 1: 32:39

See if you can see me nodding off in the YouTube. But as far as favorite episodes always and I think I will treasure these forever will be my first three episodes with Kelly of that two-hour conversation we had, because it was everything that I wanted the podcast to be, and I think I learned that the reason we have those conversations is because, like I said at the beginning, we've been having them for years, and conversation like that doesn't just happen with someone that you've just met, and I'm so thankful that you've just met and I'm so thankful that we got that recorded. I also had both of my daughters. Well, I have three daughters, so I've had two out of the three on there. I've had the oldest and the youngest, and I actually asked my middle daughter to come on and talk about being the spouse of an educator and she said I think for the sake of my marriage, I should not do that. So we didn't, but I could have had all three on.

Speaker 1: 33:47

So that was really nice to Shanna, who is shy and came on because she wanted to do this for her friend who had passed, and then Debbie came on and represented support staff and I will tell you to this day, debbie's episode is the number one downloaded episode on the platform, because support staff have just as many stories as teachers do. And then my friend Melissa, which I hope that you too, I know we talked about doing some stuff in the future. Melissa is a huge advocate for teachers and a trauma therapist, and she came on and she was also a fan favorite. So, but you're right, I mean every. I could probably go through all of them and say how much I enjoyed each and every one of them, because they were, they were just. Every one of them was a blessing, a personal blessing to me, and I loved it.

Speaker 2: 34:56

I loved it, yeah, and a blessing to everyone who has the opportunity to listen to the conversation as well, right, I mean, yeah, I just think about the connection and the courage that it takes for a lot of folks to come on and share their stories, and that vulnerability and how that really sparks courage in others to speak up, maybe not on a podcast, but with a colleague or with a friend, or even with an administrator, to say, hey, you know, I've had this experience, and now that I've heard someone else talk about it, I know that it's not just me, right?

Speaker 1: 35:36

So I think and I think there are so many people that don't understand that educators are worried about losing their jobs for speaking their truth. And you know, Debbie, like I said, she's support staff, they, their contracts are renewed annually your support staff, at least in most states. She came on knowing that it was a risk for her to and she said we're just going to tell it all, because that's why I'm here. If I'm going to risk this, I'm going to tell it all. And she did, and she did it in a respectful way. Administrators have been hard for me to get on because most of them, many of them, have gone to yearly contracts as well. It's a big career risk for them to come on and tell their truth.

Speaker 2: 36:26

Yeah, absolutely All of the politics involved in the bureaucracy and reputations of districts and schools. I think that's what keeps us stuck is the inability to be authentic and share what's really going on.

Speaker 1: 36:43

Yep, and actually Kelly said that in the very first, those first three episodes, she said transparency is what she wished most for education.

Speaker 2: 36:56

Absolutely. I even think about teacher preparation programs, college courses, right, like we are never prepared for what it's like in the real world. And a little bit of reality in order to build some resilience proactively, I think could go a long way, right, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:16

I agree.

Speaker 2: 37:17

Yeah, okay. So then, kind of coming full circle to where we are now, you know, when did you know that it was time to pass the mic with Taut and kind of move on to some other things?

Speaker 1: 37:33

with taught and and kind of move on to some other things. Well, I kind of suspected, as my stress level was increasing and my husband was like holy cow, you know this is, this is getting a little out of hand. Your projects that were supposed to make me feel good, you know, had become this full-time job. So whenever I think I got to that point where I knew I needed to start dropping things off my plate, I felt guilty. Like every time I dropped something, I was like this feels bad. It doesn't feel like I'm giving back to myself. I feel guilty because I'm letting people down and I thought wait a minute, I know what this is. It's people pleasing and Amy Schamberg and I have talked about this on the podcast and I am back in the burnout space and this is being fed by this feeling that I need to please others more than do what is right for me. So as I started walking myself through the process thank you Amy I knew that I just needed to start dropping things and the more I dropped, the lighter my burnout load felt and I was like okay, so back to what Lenita said, got to get that plate to a reasonable level.

Speaker 1: 38:59

Tot was the thing that was taking up a lot of my time, that I kind of felt like I had done what I needed to do with it, which was a surprise to me because it was my baby and it takes a long time to build something like this up and a lot of work. But additionally, I'm writing a new book. So remember, talk came from a book first, and this next book is not about being a teacher. It is about something completely different. It's about divorce and the pain that a family goes through and how you put yourself back together after that. So I thought, well, this is where I want to spend my time now. I want to spend my time in this world for a bit.

Speaker 1: 39:52

And TOT was coming up on its one-year anniversary and I thought, you know what? It's been a year, okay, I gave a year of my life to this. And the stars aligned and your schedule opened up. Yes, it did, and so I was just going to say, oh, we'll just take a break from it because I didn't want to end it, just going to say, oh, we'll just take a break from it because I didn't want to end it. And I thought I'm just going to ask her and it just seems like everything kind of fell into place, and I don't. I can't think of many people that I would want to. I didn't want to drop the mic, but I didn't know anybody that I wanted to hand it over to either until, like I said, I didn't know anybody that I wanted to hand it over to either until, like I said, your schedule opened up. So, speaking of serendipity, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 40:38

Well, I mean I'm so honored and so excited and equally terrified, because what you have created, melissa, is something beyond my wildest dreams. I've always wanted to work on a podcast, but I mean, we'll see how it goes. You can give me a grade here in a couple of months and we'll see.

Speaker 1: 41:01

You're going to do great.

Speaker 2: 41:03

Oh boy, I hope so. I'm really excited, but I just I really appreciate your honesty in sharing just this entire process. You know from where it began to where it is now and we'll have to make sure we link your book, your new book, when that's ready, when do you anticipate publishing that one, by the way?

Speaker 1: 41:25

That was a long ways away from it. Well, let's be, let's be clear. It took me like seven years to do the first one. It's not going to take that long this time because I'm not teaching while I'm writing it, but it's a ways away from being done.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Okay, all right, well, to be continued. So, finally, what do you hope that your listeners over the past two seasons took away from all of the stories that you shared?

Speaker 1: 41:47

I hope that they learned along with me. I hope they supported my guests. I hope they felt that they wanted to advocate for those people and I hope that they became advocates for helping all of us lead lives that are based on balance, not production, because I think that that needs to be so far out of the education world. We're not producing. Producing and educating are two different things. Yeah, I hope that was their. I hope that was their takeaway, especially that advocacy piece, because if you're not an educator and you listen to the podcast, I hope it made you want to go out and make their lives better so that our students' lives can be better.

Speaker 2: 42:38

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can't think of many people who don't have some type of connection to an educator, right, whether you're a parent with kids in school or just someone in your neighborhood has got to be involved in education, or you have a neighborhood school down the block, right. I mean, it's just, it's all around, and anything that we can do as citizens right, like passing a bond or a levy to bring more funding to our local schools, or as a parent attending a PTCO meeting on occasion, or as a business, you know, offering your services there's just so much that can be done, and so I really appreciate you sharing that. Because advocacy it takes more than just the people in the profession to advocate for change, right, we need to have a bigger community of those who are able and willing to move this forward.

Speaker 1: 43:37

And I think people hear advocacy and it's a scary word because it sounds like a lot of work that maybe they don't even know where to begin. But I can tell you right now that advocacy can start with having trust in your educators and respect for them. Respect them the same way that you do your doctor. Respect them the same way you do your dentist. Respect them the same way you do the person at the grocery store. Assume that that person knows how to do their job, rather than the opposite. That right there, that kind of advocacy could change the face of education.

Speaker 2: 44:16

Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah Well yeah. I was going to. Well, great, do you have anything else that you want to to share about?

Speaker 1: 44:23

I do. Oh no, no, I don't have anything else I want to share. Oh okay, I actually have some questions for you now. Oh, it's my time Because you're going to be the new host, so we need to know about our new host. Okay, all right, so you've been a guest on TOT several times. What made you want to step into the role of host? Yes, or did you? Maybe it was guilt.

Speaker 2: 44:49

It was not guilt at all. You know, melissa, I have been wanting to start a podcast for years and I just never did. I don't know why, probably because, similar to you, I've always had many balls in the air and it seemed like too big of a project to get going on my own. But you know, when I reflect on our relationship and when we first started having conversations last year, you know it just really inspired me to do something that could continue this movement that I think you've started right. So, like I said before, having a platform to express experiences and share burnout stories was a foundational piece. And with what I'm doing in my life right now, I've gone back to school to learn how to create systemic change. Through a doctorate program at the Colorado School of Public Health, you know, I've really been focusing on systems level interventions and I can see this beautiful kind of pivot with TOT going to that direction, you know.

Speaker 2: 46:04

So I think that, whereas it's been a space for real talk about burnout and what that means and how that feels, and I believe that that was so validating and necessary, but I think back to an article that I read a couple of years ago. Actually, I think I have it right here. So it's so interesting how the universe works, because I found this article in 2022, before I knew that I was going to do anything with teacher well-being and educator wellness and burnout prevention and this article was kind of an impetus. It's called well, the title is Stress, burnout, anxiety and Depression Among Teachers, and it was a meta-analysis of over 70 previous research articles and it was published in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, and back then in 2022, I didn't even know what public health really was. And here I am now a, you know, public health doctorate student. So it's just interesting how that works.

Speaker 2: 47:02

But one of the things that really struck me from this article the authors concluded that, you know, highlighting the factors that contribute to burnout among teachers, so those individual factors that we kind of touched on briefly before personality and kind of how we just do too much and overcommit and become perfectionists and people pleasers and all of those things. That's an important first step, but the article really highlighted the next step, which is implementation of intervention programs on a school-based, district-based level, and so I feel like it's time to explore what happens next. Okay, we know that people are struggling, we know that educators are dedicated and dying, and so what are we going to do about it now? What can schools do today and how can we move from this awareness piece that I think we've done a really great job of creating more into prevention and protection and support?

Speaker 1: 48:05

So I think that's definitely needed. And you know I talked about the three types. But that middle type, those people who learn and are able to take those strategies and make it in the system, boy, that's a tiny group. That is a tiny group because oftentimes you cannot do the job and use the effective burnout strategies. You just can't, the system's not set up for it.

Speaker 2: 48:30

It really isn't. And even if you step away for a while and you recover your resilience and you've given yourself enough time and space to think, you know what I can do this again. I'm a better person, I've got new strategies and different patterns and you step back in and if the system hasn't changed one bit, it just beats you back down. As much as you try to keep your head above water and be the change you want to see in the world, you can't do it.

Speaker 1: 49:02

And let's keep in mind that system is continuing to go in the wrong direction. I mean so, at least from what I hear three years worse than the year before.

Speaker 2: 49:14

Oh yeah, and who knows what the next four years will look like.

Speaker 1: 49:20

With less resources.

Speaker 2: 49:22

I'll be moving to Portugal with you pretty soon. I'm fairly certain.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Maybe I should go back to that platform and helping people again. Exactly.

Speaker 2: 49:32

But yeah, I think that is just a really it's. There's always been an important time. It's always been a necessary moment in time to do this work, but I think now more than ever, it's time to to move forward into action and solutions that we can implement.

Speaker 1: 49:51

So what sparked your interest in workplace wellness? Because this is the direction that you are going personally, right, you know, taking my podcast there with you for a little bit and systems level change Also. What? What got you interested in this?

Speaker 2: 50:07

Well, it really came out of my own experience with burnout. So after I you know, after working as a school psychologist for nearly 13 years and burning out and needing to leave, like you, I wanted to do something. I didn't want to just leave and say, okay, forget that part of my life, I'm going to completely pivot into something else. I wanted to help those who were still in the trenches. So after I took a sabbatical from working in public education, I became a health and wellness coach and I started providing one-on-one coaching for burnt out high achievers and I started putting on wellness workshops locally.

Speaker 2: 50:51

Talking about stress management techniques, and how to build your resilience and how to set better boundaries, and how to recognize if you're a people pleaser and a perfectionist and what to do if you are all of these individual level interventions which, like we said before, that is a component, and at the time I thought, like this is it right? Like because for myself, I learned that I had also those patterns and that was what was causing me to continuously be stuck in a burnout cycle. So I thought, gosh, if I could just teach others to recognize these patterns within themselves and learn what to do differently for themselves, then, you know, everybody will be happy and healthy and we won't have this problem anymore. And it was. I'll never forget the workshop that I had just delivered at a private school in Denver, and I always ask for feedback afterwards so that I can improve my presentations, and I just need to get a pulse on how it's being received. And one of the participants said something to the effect of you know, thank you for the presentation.

Speaker 2: 51:54

However, I think it's important to recognize it doesn't matter how many strategies we have, how many mindfulness techniques I have, or you know how many minutes I meditate every morning, if I'm constantly walking back into a toxic environment day after day. That doesn't work and that really struck me. I am forever grateful for that person who shared that insight, because that changed everything for me and that's when I realized, okay, what I am doing is probably counterproductive because I'm telling people who are stuck in a toxic system to that that is your fault essentially and it's not you know. So that really kind of pushed me on this. This path towards workplace wellness systems and, you know, led to me going back to school and really just kind of helped me understand that I've got to be able to change the systems before I can really help the people inside of those systems.

Speaker 1: 52:55

That's a big mountain that you are going to be climbing. But you're absolutely right. I mean, like I said earlier, you know the people that, honestly, the people that I knew that were existing in the system were those people that kind of had the effort attitude and still loved their job. I mean, so can't not the effort attitude where you show up with that attitude all day long towards everything, but the one where they were like I'll do what I can do, you know, or people who just love to be like super busy, those people did pretty well too, like over the top busy for me.

Speaker 2: 53:38

Yeah, absolutely, and I'm inspired by other industries because I have noticed that there are it's just across industries, it's just various companies right. Certain places have better systems in place where people feel safe, they feel a sense of belonging, they feel employees feel truly cared for, they feel that they can voice their concerns without fear of retribution or retaliation. Those industries, those organizations do exist and that inspires me and I'd love to take from that and apply it to our school systems, because I think that it is possible.

Speaker 1: 54:20

Well, you know, Rob McLeod, which I know you listened to a couple of his episodes, talks about this very thing that when your values align with the values of the organization, that can be a beautiful thing, but when those values don't align, that's tough. So he might be an interesting person to have back as you continue to kind of evolve the direction of taught. So why is right now the right time to do this? Why is right now the right?

Speaker 2: 54:53

time to do this. Well, I think the conversation is evolving right. I think that in the world of workplace wellness as well, there is a shift from okay, wellness as perks and programs like here's your free gym membership and here's access to the EAP with your six free therapy sessions, and here are these benefits, these things that you can take advantage of or use on your own time, which is, like, again, a great piece of the puzzle, but not the whole puzzle. But I'm seeing that many folks in the workplace wellness space are advocating for systems change. That looks like different policies, family friendly policies or, you know, different types of flexibility with work arrangements, whatever that might be, or leadership training.

Speaker 2: 55:44

Do our managers really know how to be managers and treat their employees Like I think about in a school system? We don't necessarily have managers, but I think about principals in a school district and I see them as the middle managers. Right, because at the district level we have the real leaders and then we have us employees in the schools. But I think a lot of times there's not been appropriate training on how to create a psychologically safe work environment for your teachers and educators. And so, because I'm seeing this shift happening in the corporate world. I'm inspired that we can bring a lot of that back, and so I think that those sustainable solutions that are multi-pronged, multi-level, it's happening in other places. So now is the time to evolve the direction of the podcast, to ride on those coattails and see how we can integrate that in education as well.

Speaker 1: 56:46

And I think there is a want from the people in the systems too. That's going to bring you some listeners, more than likely. I hope so. So, speaking of listeners, can you share a little more about what you feel like listeners can expect as we move into this next phase of TALK?

Speaker 2: 57:06

Yeah, absolutely. We'll still hear voices from those in the trenches, because those voices need to be heard and elevated. But we'll also be bringing in experts on workplace wellness. We'll be talking to organizational psychologists and public health researchers, union leaders, education leaders, authors, hr professionals. I hope some policymakers will see, but people who are already actively working to reshape the environments for educators and frontline workers in general spend their days. So people who are getting it right, who have made these changes and can come and share their wisdom here with us on TOT so that we can then share this with the education sector at large.

Speaker 1: 57:51

Nice yeah. So in addition, you're planning on doing some solo episodes too, right?

Speaker 2: 57:58

Yes, I am, because I, like I said, I'm back in school, I'm deep diving into all of this research. I'm just so excited, I'm such a nerd. My husband makes fun of me because he'll be reading a book at night and I'll have my nose in a research article. He's like is that for an assignment? Actually, no, I just found this one. It's so great. But now I have someone or a place to share this wisdom with. So I'll be releasing some solo episodes where I dive into those evidence-based concepts and frameworks that I'm exploring through those doctoral studies and I hope to break down some complex ideas, things like psychosocial risk factors and psychological safety, organizational stress models, total worker health approach, all of these different frameworks, to break them down in a way that's accessible to listeners, that's actionable, that is directly relevant to those working in education, so that it can be a strategy that is used immediately. So there will be those solo episodes where I'm just sharing some of that exciting information that I'm coming upon.

Speaker 1: 59:05

I'm really glad that you're doing that, because I think that when we start talking about burnout and we start talking about systems change, I feel like there's a lot of shame around both, because either you're somebody who has been part of setting up the system, so you're like, well crap, the system didn't work. This, this whole thing that we worked on for two years and now we're finding out that it doesn't work and it's wasted time. And if you're someone suffering from burnout, you could be both of those things a system arranger and a burnout person. I think there's shame around that, too. You feel like it shouldn't be happening to you. So when you go through all the things that you're going to go through in those solo episodes, people are going to be able to put those puzzle pieces together to see that these are the things that happen when you're in an environment that doesn't emphasize balance and self-care and some of the other things that I am not an expert on that I know you're going to talk about. So really important stuff, amy, thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:06

Yeah, yeah, it is so important, and I think it's also necessary to highlight the fact that there is no simple solution, and if there was a simple solution, somebody would have already put it into place. And so it's highly complicated, it's very complex, it's very dynamic, and so we just have to gather as much information as we can, and I'm hoping that together listeners, you and I, we can kind of come to a direction right To provide some recommendations. So you're going to be wearing a lot of hats.

Speaker 1: 1:00:42

You're adding podcaster to that. You're already a school psychologist. You do the coaching, consulting. How do you see all of the hats shaping the podcast?

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

Yeah, this is the stuff that I'm deeply immersed in right now researching and studying and application knowledge and I hope to bring listeners along with me on this part of the journey. So not just as a podcast host, but as a practitioner, as a researcher, as an advocate who's working to connect these dots between science and research and the lived realities of the people on the ground, in the trenches, doing the work day after day. I can't wait.

Speaker 1: 1:01:27

So what's your hope for where TOTS is going to go?

Speaker 2: 1:01:30

Well, I hope that it becomes a trusted space for both grounded conversation and knowledge translation. So having those raw, open, vulnerable conversations about what it's really like and talking about what the research says, what the really smart folks at the universities have discovered, and how do we translate that knowledge into implementation, how do we turn facts and ideas into strategy and how can we make that strategy turn into real sustainable change. So that's my vision. That's exciting, yeah, yeah, how about you? What are your hopes for the future of TOT?

Speaker 1: 1:02:16

You know, I hope that the podcast continues to grow and that people continue to reach out to you to share their stories, whether it is about systems that are working, systems that are not, whether it's their personal stories, because burnout feels lonely, and the more stories we hear on every level of all of this, the less alone we feel.

Speaker 2: 1:02:41

Yeah, yeah, Okay. So I have to ask you this question when you were deciding that it was time to pass the mic and move on to your other projects, how did you decide to give it to me? I'm so honored, Melissa, but I'm like how on earth did I get so lucky?

Speaker 1: 1:02:59

I just have to ask you this out loud Well, this has been a no-brainer because you have been part of my podcast since the very beginning. You were very open. You knew I did not have followers and you were like, okay, well, you knew I did not have followers and you were like, okay, well, I've got this idea. Here's some research. You sent me like four articles and they were like 100 pages long and I skimmed them. I'm going to be honest, I skimmed them, but I was like this lady really knows what she's talking about and you have such a good heart for this.

Speaker 1: 1:03:37

You know you, metaphorically, have been up to your elbows and systems change on several levels for a while now and you understand burnout and the toll that it can take. And I think that level of understanding is necessary for whoever's going to do this and, honestly, I didn't have it. You gave it to me, amy, you and some other people Melissa Anthony being another one, sarah Moneris also you all gave me your knowledge and allowed me to keep this going. So whoever does it needs to have that. But, beyond all of that, I think you are kind and compassionate and you do such a nice job of creating a safe space, which is what is necessary to continue this conversation and steer the podcast in a direction where guests and listeners can maybe have some hope for education and a vision for what it means to be an experienced professional educator, without always standing on the precipice of burnout.

Speaker 2: 1:04:41

Well, I'm going to cry now. Yeah, I thank you for those kind words. I was not expecting to hear all of that. I I'm just so honored and I will not let your listeners down and I'm excited for where it goes. I just have so much gratitude for you for laying the foundation and getting things going and taking it to where it is right now, and I really do feel like this is a continuation, not a departure for you, right? I do believe that you'll be involved on some level. Here or there. People will still hear your voice, right? Well, we'll have all of your social media linked and all of the projects that you're currently working on linked, if you're open to it, of course. The projects that you're currently working on linked, if you're open to it, of course. Yeah, I guess any partying words of wisdom as you pass the torch.

Speaker 1: 1:05:48

Well, I don't know that these are words of wisdom, but every guest that you're going to have on here is going to give you the gift of trust. Every story has value and don't be afraid to ask the hard questions, because sometimes it feels a little scary when you don't have the relationship like you and I have. But we have to let the uncomfortable stories be told in the way that it honors how the person telling it wants it told. And after the stories are told, let those guide your work. You have the heart, you have the voice, you have the forum. So trust your gut and take this podcast in whatever direction your gut tells you, and I know you're gonna be amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:06:32

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for that. And you guys all heard it here. She said we're going to get uncomfortable. That's okay, right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 1:06:40

That's how we grow. Melissa, thank you so much for this time today, this interview, for creating something so powerful with TAUT, and thank you to everyone who has listened so far. This next chapter is really about making change together, and I can't everyone who has listened so far. This next chapter is really about making change together and I can't wait for us to explore what that looks like. So thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:07:00

It has been my pleasure and I also cannot wait.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

Thanks so much for listening to taught. If you found today's episode valuable, please consider sharing it with a colleague or leaving a review, and remember to hit follow so you never miss an episode. For additional resources to support educator well-being and organizational change, visit my website at amyshanbergcom. Backslash talk and if you'd like to keep today's conversation going, let's connect on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you. Finally, don't forget to check the show notes for links to today's guests and everything they're up to. See you next time.